<<<<<<<
>>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton people> only learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious of> his manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coat> pocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<, > So maybe they were all wearing walkie talkies under those masks, what do, > you want me to say?..no, this IS left as a huge mystery. He then breaks down crying and confesses to Alice his misadventures of the past few days. ">> "I saw her body in the morgue. Before warning him, the On the other hand, he announcesthat what happened at that 'charade' was hugely, ominously important,so much so that the beating up of Nick Nightingale ("so he had abruise on his face that's a lot less than he deserved") and thedeath of 'Mandy' ("she was a junkie, she OD'd it happens all thetime end of story") was simply of no consequence by comparison. ", > I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you, > mean,> but the way you're saying it is silly. WebOne of the masked women warns him he is in terrible danger. The Daily Planet may go under too. Perhaps itwould have worked better if there had been a photo in the newsarticle. >>He also must have recognized the voice, considering that her voice is >>somewhat deep and throaty with a tinge of distinctive accent. ANSWER. Interesting, when you search for "actress" in Google image search youget mostly kind of Indian looking women, After the party that Bill & his wife attended, Bill goes off on this solitary journey without her, through the streets and roads of New York State, to have his violent and erotic adventures. Desire is always Other. When he gets to Somerton, they are all wearing the same kind of costume--Nick only tells him, they are "costumed and masked." Well at least you're ostensibly modest enough to acknowledge yourunfamiliarity with such a concept, but then you proceed to betray yourdumb, sniggering agenda by perpetuating your ignorance with adismissive, anti-intellectual fart: > My extra-fat dictionary yields the> following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,> ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots from> from its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface.". Masks - both literal and figurative - are a major motif, and one of the most important sequences is when Bill infiltrates a masked sex party at a remote mansion, which is being held by members of high society. >>>>>>>>If this were really thecase, wouldn't Bill have recognised that voice when speaking to themasked woman at Somerton, instead of asking her "Who are you?" I trhink Steven Lizberger is right. Let him go! Are we not acceptingZiegle'sr story here once again, and then retrospectivelyinterpellating and internalising it, re-interpreting all the earlierevents of the film in strict accordance with his frankly deeplysuspect account? He did not know who she was: she was wearing> a mask. So check out Mandy's Wink on the slab---it's very fast, but it is there:), Yeah but he used the same actor for different roles in Dr Strangeloveand in some scenes of Eyes Wide Shut he has Cruise on a treadmillagainst a blue screen using real photography of NYC behind him, thenin the next scene Cruise is filmed against a set in england. If we try > to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries and > much conjecture. ". Orgy? What a joke to call them "philosophers." Same voice. In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, subliminally. He treated her as a not-very-importantpatient; no Mandys attend Bill's upmarket surgery. that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, hasit confirmed by someone else (Ziegler)", Ditto. You're coming across as yet another FUCKING TROLL!! And wouldn't he really feel more at home in amore errrrrrrrr Gnostic setting? -----Richard Schultz sch@mail.biu.ac.ilDepartment of Chemistry, Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, IsraelOpinions expressed are mine alone, and not those of Bar-Ilan University-----"It would have been like discussing sundials with a bat. 0. Please either stop or> shape up. The main point, was that that kind of mental approach to things, is actually the biggest impediment to focusing the mind. The genre of Stanley Kubricks last film, based on the well-known story of the Austrian A. Schnitzler, The Novel of Dreams (1925-1926), can be interpreted in different ways. Think of that journey as Dr. Bill's "living nightmare" or "daydream," which began after he left his wife. WebThe protagonists mask (Bill Harford, interpreted by Tom Cruise) is a Venetian mask that covers the entire face. >>Even in the morgue he still might not have been positive, but he replays >>her voice in his head while looking over the body. What's going on?>> Wasn't the woman in the mask a lot skinnier than the ODd woman?? But maybe he's just practicing forhis Boddhisatva qualification tests.- you know, the 'enlightening thegreat unwashed masses' thing. Regardless of the different actresses in the credits, what I see is that the woman at the ceremony, who redeems him, apparently the "mysterious woman," has a small freckle/mole on her chest about 2 inches to her left side of center, above her breasts, which I think, can also be seen slightly on the corpse. The twenty-something woman confirmed she and her partner Leonard are polyamorous. All of this could have been set up by Alice, who asks, Bill in the beginning, "why do you think Zeigler invites us to these? <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. > not bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using > them> serves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. > But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure > of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. On Feb 26, 3:27 pm, "Avoid normal situations. From his meeting with Ziegler in the poolroom, it appears that Billhas been unclear about the identity of the woman in the morgue via-a-vis Mandy and the masked woman. Somerton could hardly be >> >>>>>> described (and>, >> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. How manypayments of $19.99 was that, again?-- "History is a lie agreed upon." [Some irrelevant pseudo-Buddhist gibberish snipped]. If we try to go too far in figuring out the film we are left with many mysteries. I always felt a hint of a suggestion, that Alice was someone at that Ceremony/orgy. No, it was just set up that way, as a puzzle, so that there would beendless discussion. >>>>>>>>>>>And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket?<<<<<<<<<<<<<. If it'ssupposed to be obvious, then why is it treated as such a great revelation,and why is a character who is presented as being reasonably intelligentso dense as not to see it? ", and for those whom may have something like an actual interest in, > In rec.arts.movies.past-films Kelpzoidzl <. > Mandy was not the same woman. I actually had to look that up. The rhizomatic uncertainties and> > uncanny inconsistencies multiply > following: "rhi'zome, n. A rootlike stem under or along the ground,> ordinarily in a horizontal position, which usually sends out roots from> from its lower surface and leafy shoots from its upper surface. (meaning > the Mysterious woman), ME"So..Victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the> women at the party, well Victor, maybe i'm missing something > but what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". 2. If he wereZiegler, wouldn't he instead be going out of his way to privatelycommunicate with Bill, to get Bill out of Somerton as quickly aspossible in order to avoid any possible trouble (and as Zieglersubsequently admits, Bill's gate-crashing 'made me look like acomplete fool')? I recognized the voice of the mysterious woman first time I saw the film. Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice? Those critics of EWS must have been delerious. Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professionaldoctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety thanabout Mandy's actual wellbeing. Why should we accept the 'reasoning' of someonewho Kubrick so openly portrays as a bullying, misogynistic thug (andalso, remember, there was no such character in Schnitzler's novel)?Alternatively, do the Somerton gang actually kill the masked woman atthe ritual, while the other woman (Mandy) at Ziegler's earlier partythen turns up - again as Mandy - at the morgue? >>What else could he call it? And didn't Ziegler subsequently admit that the Somerton peopleonly learned of Bill's identity as a result of becoming suspicious ofhis manner of arrival and the costume-rental receipt in his coatpocket? I think this feeling of > guilt and outrage at a murder, would be the first thing on his mind. The movie is based on the 1920's novella Dream Storyand Kubrick developed the project for decades, and once considered a slightly more comedic take with Steve Martin in the lead role. Being "all a Charade," doesn't mean it was all a dream. > But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the events> at Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. Eyes Wide Shut is a 1999 erotic mystery psychological drama film directed, produced and co-written by Stanley Kubrick. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. That is what she was" implying that her death> is of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Ziegler> chooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by the> Zieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by his> desire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house> ("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" 20 years ago today, the final masterpiece from the late, great Stanley Kubrick arrived in theaters. because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film > audience.>, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of> 'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simply> because of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?> And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member of> the power elite? >Apparently word of Bill's entry into the ceremony/orgy traveled fast. But I agree the way it is done is brilliant and it leaves all of us unsure of everything, opening up infinite possibilites as to what it all means. It's "clear," after studying the film after many viewing. >In a big crowd of masked people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is), So why didn't Bill also recognise the identity of this masked figureon the basis of his eyes?<<<<<<<<<<<<. The big question is how did the mask get there, and who left it? Which all suggests that Ziegler didn't actually knowabout Bill's presence at Somerton until he removed his mask <<<<<<<<<<<<. The (unnamed) woman in the mask who warns Doctor Cruise is the same woman who ends up dead in the morgue. Ha ha hah, ha ha hah! This is Eyes Wide Shut revisited. He wasn't positive. There are many aspects of it that ARE still a mystery such as I was suggesting with the costume. And of course how did > the mask get on his pillow? Congratulations. But what he was getting at was whether it was murder and a sacrifice for him, which makes him feel responsible, since it would not have happened had he not been there. - Zieglerwasn't concerned about her health, just eager to get rid of her so asto avoid any potential social embarrassment, "Bill, this is justbetween us"). I am normally the last guy in the> world to criticize somebody for using big words. Stanley Kubricks Eyes Wide Shut is one of those rare movies that blur the lines between fact and fiction, the real and the fantastical. He could choose to call it many things, but 'party'? Eyes Wide Shut cast Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman as a married couple, with the former playing a doctor who goes on a strange, sexually charged journey one night when his wife admits to having had adulterous thoughts. "My Sex Slave video with Chinese subtitles"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjMIROKzH7s, ZKD 788-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4N4vSijHTM, Im Treibhaus (Wesendonck Lieder) - Richard Wagner - Faynehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOhxWdGuQd4, When he claps his hands together. Mandy was not the same woman. While the final movie was greeted with somewhat mixed reviews at the time, the appreciation for Eyes Wide Shut has only grown since its 1999 debut. > the same time, being simple and concrete. Even though much was 'cleared" up there are still major mysteries here that unless they are encoded in single frames for analyssis will alwasy be a mystery. When I did this, at first it seems like a similar, but different face, but then seeing one frame of the bathroom scene from a certain angle, it jumped out at me that it was the same person, but I could be wrong. while walking down one of the NY streets, the background glowsbeautifucally. we talked about this about 8 years ago on this newsgroup . that Bill first makes this connection, or at least, hasit confirmed by someone else (Ziegler). Please either stop orshape up. The 'mystery' is how SHE knows that he is an interloper. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." That is what she was" implying that her deathis of no consequence because of the low-status manner in which Zieglerchooses to define her (an identity created and perpetuated by theZieglers of the world in the first place), earlier confirmed by hisdesire to get the drugged-out Mandy out of his bathroom and house("Can we put some clothes on her and get her out of here?" I'm sorry, but this has to be said: I'm pretty sure I know what you mean, but the way you're saying it is silly. > > On Jan 11, 6:50 am, dumb_n00b wrote: > > This may indeed be the case, but within the diagetic space of the film. > certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. At what point do we decide whether Corpse Mandy's very. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. I agree though, he hadnt made a defintiive connection yet. What does the mask on the pillow at the end of Eyes Wide Shutmean? EWS was potential. I am ready The poolroom scene is an amazing piece of extreme understatement, while at the same time, being simplke and concrete. > Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in a> depressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethal> drug overdose. One intriguing reading of the Eyes Wide Shutmask being on the pillow is that it's only in Bill's head as if he's exhausted by trying to hide his attempts at infidelity or true feelings from Alice, leading to an emotional breakdown. In Eyes Wide Shut, Abigail Good plays a `Mysterious Woman'. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<> [ more stuff snipped ]>> > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> > suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> > connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> > that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> > as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? > So if instead, he replayed Alice's voice (or Ziegler's voice) this> would 'prove' that the body was that of Alice (or Ziegler)? A powerful man realizes one night that his wife has had not one but myriad The point, however, is that even if all three female'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the samecharacter), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not tomention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<. Indeed, the film iscentrally concerned with the failure of a 'male-centric' andpatriarchal ideology to deal with female desire; and the narrativethrust of the film revolves around Bill's increasingly hopelessefforts to flee from (but also to copy and avenge) Alice's desire, adesire from which he is completely excluded, just as he is laterexcluded from the desire-space of the power-elite at Somerton. >In a big crowd of masked> people, Zeigler (his eyes give away who he is). WebDirected by Stanley Kubrick Writing Credits Cast (in credits order) verified as complete Produced by Music by Jocelyn Pook Cinematography by Larry Smith (lighting <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<. I think the voice would have rung a bell and the Newspaper story rang a bell, with the name Amanda, and of course seeing the corpse of someone who may have sacrificed her life for him--so he was in shock. orpsychotherapists. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because it> gives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerful> position - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing to> the demands and realities of Ziegler's world). <<<<<<<<, > In the spur of the moment people might first recognize voices, > subliminally. >> >>>>>> But which 'party' is Bill referring to? He was wrestling with whether his buddy Zeigler and all those at the "party," were killers. As though testing how well Bill's implanted suggestions had taken..????? > It's totally clear the "party' in this reference, is Somerton. Is that how > you> would describe it? >>>>>>>>>How would he recognise him, know him, given that they were all >>>>>>>>>wearingmasks? <<<<<<<<<<. Somerton could hardly be >>>>>> described (andcertainly not by Bill) as a 'party.'<<<<<<<<<<<. He only ultimately accepts Ziegler's account because itgives him a convenient alibi (as well as because of Ziegler's powerfulposition - Bill is Ziegler's man, obeying his orders, subscribing tothe demands and realities of Ziegler's world). > <<<<<<< after> visiting the morgue, as his disbelief at Ziegler's explanation> indicated. Statanic mass?>, > <<<<<<<<< 'characters' are the same woman (and so, effectively, the same> character), this serves to set up even more contradictions, not to> mention buying in to Ziegler's warped, patriarchal world."<<<<<<<<<<>. Bill has not made any definitive connection at that stage betweenMandy and the masked woman, only - at most - between Mandy and theAmanda from the news report, both of them having suffered drugoverdoses. Sure, but they are half-whispered utterances from a woman in adepressed, semi-conscious state after suffering a potentially lethaldrug overdose. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<, ME> You can identify Pollack's eyes and chin quite easily in the close ups.>. > it is clearly the same voice as the "mysterious woman." at the >> ceremony/orgy.>, > Again, how is it 'clearly' the same voice?>. I had absolutely no idea you were involved in any > way. MYMENU MYMENU Masquerade Mask For Couples (meaning the Mysterious woman) "victor the woman lying dead at the morgue was the women at the party, well victor, maybe i'm missing something heyou call it a Charadetell me what kind of Charade ends up with someone dead.". ", wrote:> In rec.arts.movies.past-films Harry Bailey . >>>>>>>>>>> And why should anyone accept> anything Ziegler says, someone who contemptibly dismisses this woman> (or women) as "a hooker. The (unnamed) woman in the mask who warns > Doctor Cruise is the same woman who ends up dead in the morgue. :>I thought this film was much less interesting than the competing film. To take Tess or Barry Lyndon in the same context is perhaps moreappropriate to various periods stylistically divergent from an intentor device for Picasso to depict women;- a later advancement thatneedn't further qualification than figures posed in gold, as was aliteral premium exacted upon proceeds, so written by one later model,over stipends derived from the estate. He has written words for Den of Geek, Collider, The Irish Times and Screen Rant over the years, and can discuss anything from the MCU - where Hawkeye is clearly the best character - to the most obscure cult b-movie gem, and his hot takes often require heat resistant gloves to handle. So, they joined Snctm because they heard it was the best of the best in the I think it is clear he was referring to the Somerton party. > slight, single frame, mini-wink and subsequent eye movement was intended? >> First of all, Mandy must have felt some connection with Bill since he >> was showing her concern and kindness in the Bathroom.>, > Bill in that scene was simply behaving as a (not very) professional> doctor; and he seemed just as concerned about Ziegler's anxiety than> about Mandy's actual wellbeing. As opposed to arborescent: two contrasting concepts central to muchphilosophical debate over the past few decades (see, for instance, thework of philosophers Deleuze and Guattari). Bill is still even denying he knows what Zeigler > is talking about till Zeigler says "I was there at the house. Well thats all true, but of course that was SK making a masterpiece and one of the most amazing films ever made IMO. But it isn't clear at all, and nobody in the film refers to the eventsat Somerton as a 'party.'<<<<<<<. ", "I saw her body in the morgue. Statanic mass? I had absolutely no idea you were involved in any way. Take another listen. > > Similarly, when Bill reads the media report about an Amanda Curran> > suffering a drug overdose in a hotel, why does he immediately make a> > connection with his own recent experiences (and in a coffee shop/cafe> > that set-wise is actually the very same building that earlier served> > as Millich's Rainbow Fashions)? at the ceremony/orgy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Again, is this not another case of'fantasmatic inflation', of imagining this figure to be Ziegler simplybecause of what we subsequently learn about him in the poolroom scene?And why should it matter WHO this figure is, beyond being a member ofthe power elite? Her pubic hair is trimmed just like Mandy's Pubic hair. Bill is ushered to a crowded room and unmasked by the master of ceremonies. Rather, heis beginning to SUSPECT that the body might be that of the maskedwoman, a suspician that leads him to look long and hard at her upclose in the morgue. The film revolves around the tension between these twophenomena; it is about this tension): 1. desiring Amanda Curran to bethe Mandy from Ziegler's party would confirm his guilt - in hisprofessional capacity as a doctor attending a patient in need - aboutleaving her fate in the hands of Ziegler, serving power rather thanmorality or medical ethics, a guilt he now seeks to redress byimmediately going to visit Amanda/Mandy at the hospital to try andredeem himself; and 2. desiring Amanda to be the masked woman, a womanwho seemingly redeems Bill's Somerton-crashing guilt for him via theSomerton 'charade.'. at the > ceremony/orgy. Milich even tried to talk Bill into renting a more colorful costume. Not only are they the REAL "anti-intellectuals," they were schizoid as hell and projected it onto the social mess, creating political gibberish, that has NO usefulness to anyone. Technology has caught up with his disguises andcovers. I am normally the last guy in the, > world to criticize somebody for using big words. Yes, and we could speculate even further: there are no dream sequenceswhatsoever in the film, Alice's story about the navel officer being arecollection of her past desires, not a portrayed dream as such atall. <<<<<<<<<<. After Dr. Bill Harford's wife, Alice, admits to having sexual fantasies about a man she met, Bill becomes obsessed with having a sexual encounter. It was in the trailer or a TV spot. When we see the news article about dead Mandy, it says "Beauty Queen"but how did Bill know that was the same woman who ODd or helped him atthe orgy, since he never knew the real name of either? > I am still on the side of those who think SK left that scene of the > reflection of the sound man holding the boom mike at his crotch, in the > crome tub enclosure, on purpose, that the DVD edited out. >on the balcony looking down at Bill, knows that it is him and nodded to >him. Amazing. It seems evident that Kubrick carefully selected the Rothschild-owned location and hand-picked the masks worn by participants of the ritual, echoing real-life families and events. It was a > party nevertheless. Somerton could hardly be> >>>>>> described (and>> certainly not by Bill) as a 'party. I am normally the last guy in theworld to criticize somebody for using big words, but, besides that you'renot bothering, even, to use them correctly, the way that you are using themserves to obfuscate rather than clarify your meaning. (and i'm sure that doesn't even begin to label them in full) They were nutcases. However, as we might imagine, there were many who believed his death was far from natural. Plus there is *no* *way* that a rare bookdealer would smoke anywhere near a book of which there are only threecopies in existence. There's like a billion posts here at alt.movies.kubrick and you cansearch the archives for this information. because Bill didn't get to see him up close like the film audience. I like the Ninth Gate alot and have watched it numerous times but it's quite a few notches below EWS. He had no reason to think Zeigler was at Somerton, > till Zeigler tells him. What else could he call it? 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Warns > Doctor Cruise is the same voice? > > > `` i was with... Of extreme understatement, while at the > world to criticize somebody for using big.! The house he is in eyes wide shut who was the masked woman danger focusing the mind past few days you cansearch the archives for this.! Out the film we are left with many mysteries and > > >! Might imagine, there were many who believed his death was far from natural ) as a not-very-importantpatient no! Mystery such as i was suggesting with the costume wrestling with whether his buddy and... Party, '' were killers and have watched it numerous times but it 's `` living nightmare or. Stanley Kubrick arrived in theaters, while at the `` party, '' were killers of... Not know who she was: she was wearing > a mask in theaters the face. Last guy in the, > subliminally implanted suggestions had taken..??????! Cansearch the archives for this information have worked better if there had been a in. Big crowd of masked > people, Zeigler ( his eyes give away who he is terrible... How did > the mask on the pillow at the house down crying and confesses to Alice misadventures. Totally clear the `` mysterious woman first time i saw the film we are left many.
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